Israel’s ambassador to Brazil, Daniel Zohar Zonshine, rejects the comparison between Nazism and Communism when asked about statements by Brazilian politicians seeking to equate the two ideologies. “I’m not going to go into political science in that sense, but I think there’s still a difference between communism and Nazism. Communism, as far as I know, did not call for the murder of groups of people and populations,” the diplomat told leaf.
The equation between Nazism and Communism and the defense that the two ideologies be criminalized were made by President Jair Bolsonaro (PL) and allies.
About six months ago in Brazil, Zonshine criticized the statements of the podcaster Monark (Bruno Aiub), who defended the right of a Nazi party to exist in the country. “Giving legitimacy to Nazi ideology is a serious thing. It’s a dangerous thing and we’ve seen in the past that ideologies can pass into actions.”
He also says that Israel will maintain good relations with Brazil regardless of the election result in 2022; and rejected a recent report by Amnesty International that defined Israeli public policy as part of an apartheid regime.
like mr. followed the episode on the Flow Podcast, in which presenter Monark defended the right of a Nazi party to exist in Brazil? Giving legitimacy to Nazi ideology is a serious thing. It’s a dangerous thing and we’ve seen in the past that ideologies can translate into actions. I don’t think we can have any tolerance in that sense, because the Nazi ideology is racist. It includes hate speech and anti-Semitism. As an ambassador for Israel, as an Israeli citizen and as a Jew — as a child of a family whose parents survived the Holocaust, so I never had grandparents — this is something that is part of Israel’s DNA: the concern for phenomena of this kind.
Do you consider the episode an isolated case or part of a larger phenomenon? Unfortunately, it seems that it is not a completely isolated thing. We know of cases of anti-Semitism against Jews and Jewish institutions, also here in Brazil. I don’t know if there is more now than before or if we hear more about this type of event. when we hear [as declarações de Monark] at Flow or at Jovem Pan [o comentarista Adrilles Jorge foi demitido da emissora por supostamente ter feito uma saudação nazista]; or even at UNB [Universidade de Brasília], when there is a speech on the Palestinian question and the fight against Zionism — which is the national movement of the Jewish people, to create the Israeli state. This is delegitimizing the State of Israel. I believe part of the basis of this is anti-Semitism.
There are politicians in Brazil, among them deputy Eduardo Bolsonaro (PSL-SP), who used the episode in Flow to defend the criminalization of communism, as if ideologies were two sides of the same coin. How do you see this comparison? I’m not going to get into political science in that sense, but I think there’s still a difference between communism and Nazism. Communism, as far as I know, did not call for the murder of groups of people and populations. But we’ll leave that discussion for other forums.
Does the video in which former Culture Secretary Roberto Alvim copies a Nazi speech and the fact that Bolsonaro received German far-right leader Beatrix von Storch stimulate episodes of anti-Semitism? I confess that I am not very familiar with these speeches you mentioned and I do not want to say things that are not based on my knowledge. I can say that the Jewish community [no Brasil] It is not a body that has only one opinion. Like Brazilian society, the Jewish community also has a variety of ideas and support. More generally, I can say that we cannot accept as Jews or as members of the State of Israel ideas that support Nazism and Neo-Nazism. There may be political differences, but when we talk about Nazism and Nazi ideas I believe that there is unanimity in the community.
Bolsonaro had in former prime minister Byniamin Netanyahu one of his main allies abroad. Did the change of government in Israel, with the arrival of Naftali Bennett, affect relations with the Brazilian government? It is no secret that there were good relations between President Bolsonaro and Prime Minister Netanyahu. But when the government in Israel changed, there was no change in the relations between the countries. It hasn’t gotten worse and I’m hearing it when I talk to ministries [do governo Bolsonaro] and with people in society. There was a phone call [entre Bolsonaro e Bennett] in June and we will have, probably this month, a new call planned between the two leaders.
One of Bolsonaro’s main foreign policy promises was to move the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, which did not happen. Is it an outdated topic? We are very happy with each country that moves its embassy to Jerusalem. President Bolsonaro’s promise went to his electoral base, and we saw it in a very positive light. In 2019, they opened an Apex (Brazilian Trade and Investment Promotion Agency) office in Jerusalem. And I know that there are discussions at Itamaraty and the Presidency on the subject. We have a few months until the elections, so I don’t know if the president is going to move the embassy to Jerusalem. So far this has not happened.
Since the Bolsonaro government, Brazil has adopted pro-Israel positions in UN votes. There was a slight moderation with the arrival of Carlos França at Itamaraty. Is this a problem for the Israeli government? At the UN, for a long time, there were 20 decisions against Israel a year. Nowadays, if I’m not mistaken, there are 15. There is no other country in the world that has so many contrary decisions annually. Brazil, in the past, supported many of them. Since the beginning of the current government’s term, a lot has changed.
In these annual decisions, Brazil is sometimes against [Israel], sometimes abstains and sometimes supports. But the overall balance is much better than it was before. We may have differences of opinion, a legitimate thing between friendly countries. When we have things to say to Itamaraty about this, we have the channels to do so. Overall, Brazil’s votes are much more balanced than they were before and I hope this will continue in the future. It is important to highlight that Brazil has changed some of its positions because the reality of the region has also changed. With the Abraham Accords we have a huge movement between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain and Morocco. Visits, agreements and tourism.
Former president Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, who leads the polls, took a more pro-Palestine stance in his government. Mr. Do you fear that, in a possible PT victory, relations between Brazil and Israel will be compromised? We will respect any decision of the Brazilian people. It’s no secret that we don’t always like government decisions [no passado]. But, in addition to friendship, the interests of the two countries continue. Cooperation in science and technology, agriculture, defense, water management, education, health… Brazil’s interests in maintaining relations with Israel will continue. This is a very important part of my mission as an ambassador. We will continue to work to strengthen these relations between the Brazilian people and the Israeli people.
A recent report by Amnesty International defined Israel’s public policies as part of an apartheid regime. How do you see this manifestation? These reports are distorted and full of lies. Israel’s Arab society makes up 20% of the population. They are Israeli citizens, represented in parliament, government, academia and ministries… in the life of Israel. Talking about the discrimination of this audience is totally untrue.
Repeating these lies will not make it true. Now, we have things that need to improve. We sometimes have events that shouldn’t happen. But to take an event here and there and make it a policy of institutional discrimination? It’s not the situation. When something happens that shouldn’t happen, we have a very strong legal system. I can say that the situation between Israelis and Palestinians is much better than in many other places in the world. It has to improve, we have to do more — all sides have to do more — but to say that this is apartheid is not the case. Many of the accusations and the facts they present are not true.
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Daniel Zohar Zonshine, 63
Graduated in Archeology and with a Masters in Defense Studies, Zonshine joined the Israeli foreign service in 1990. He was Ambassador to Myanmar and Consul General in Mumbai (India). At the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, he served in the Agency for Overseas Programs, the Department of South America and the Department of Palestinian Affairs. He served at the embassy in Brasilia between 1998 and 2002.
