Capitalism will not solve the climate crisis, says father of the concept of sustainability

Considered the father of the concept of sustainability, John Elkington gained prominence in the corporate environment by bringing environmental and social principles to the discussion on development, without abandoning the financial perspective. But if anyone saw this as a defense that the current economic model is capable of solving climate problems, the British sociologist is adamant: “I don’t think we can trust capitalism at all.”

In an interview during an event held by Klabin, in September of this year, Elkington defended that the current system is incapable of delivering even a fraction of the sustainable objectives already defined.

“The question is: either we go for revolution or we do something different. I’m optimistic that we can do something different, but unless we do it quickly, this old-fashioned revolution is going to take its toll on our world,” he says.

Considered one of the greatest authorities in the sustainable debate, the Briton has a firm speech against polluting companies and defends that businesses that knowingly pollute the atmosphere be taken to court. “The damage they are doing will destroy millions of lives, trillions of dollars. Why should they get away with it?” he asks.

On the Brazilian situation, Elkington criticizes the policy of President Jair Bolsonaro (PL), argues that he would not be able to improve the country’s position in the world and says that Brazil is on a very dangerous path. However, he also questions whether Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva (PT) would be able to move the country in a different direction.

How is Brazil’s image in the international community today considering the environmental setbacks? You will have to forgive me because I will be unkind. People often don’t follow the news of a country, company or brand on a daily basis. They remember what they heard. Therefore, in the Global North, Brazil has long been known for deforestation.

When I was on the line 6 project [do metrô de São Paulo], I saw big chunks of tropical wood there and my obvious question was “where does this wood come from?”. Because, being from outside Brazil, I suspect.

Deforestation appears to be a relevant problem. [Também] There is growing concern about the Bolsonaro government and its almost active encouragement of different economic activities that move to virtually intact forests. A total willingness to ignore the rights of indigenous peoples.

So it depends who you talk to in Europe or North America. Some will be interested in human rights and will give you a set of questions. Others will be interested in ecology or the rainforests.

Some will still be interested in politics and wonder if it will be better if Lula wins over Bolsonaro. Last night, people were telling me it probably won’t make any difference. If it’s true, I’m very worried, because I think Brazil is on a very dangerous path.

People have told you that Lula and Bolsonaro may not make much difference, but like Mr. see? Lula is compromised because of the lawsuit against him — and I know he was exonerated. But when I’m in Brazil working for different companies, and I think, for example, of Petrobras, the level of corruption is quite significant and it’s been here for a long time.

So, even if Lula is completely innocent, the perception around the world is that Brazil is another of those countries — like India and Indonesia — where the issue of governance has probably not yet been addressed.

When I think of Bolsonaro, I don’t think at any time that he can improve Brazil’s position in the world. I think he will continue to undermine that.

I think Lula is remembered with some affection by many people. I remember some of the summits he did on the social agenda. He’s an extraordinary man, but can he really turn around and move Brazil in a different direction? I don’t know.

Mr. argues that separating political and environmental issues is getting more complicated. Because? I am not just referring to the environmental agenda. I am referring to the sustainability agenda, therefore economic, social, environmental, governance and political as well.

Most companies, most business leaders, that have thought about sustainability, have thought of it as an agenda, which is the agenda to be nicer, a little more transparent, open up a little bit. [as questões envolvendo] your supply chain, doing reports, social audits and all that stuff. All this is good, but we cannot think that as long as we do this, our part will be done.

The problem is that, while this is happening, the policy has not been working. Business leaders have long been told to stay out of politics. Today, they can no longer hide the fact that they are saying one thing in public and doing something quite different in private. Therefore, they must be transparent.

Sorry, but ExxonMobil is the enemy. I’m sorry to say this, and it may seem irrational, but about 15 years ago I had a public clash with the then-CEO of ExxonMobil, Rex Tillerson. I was at a conference in Norway talking about the company’s lobbying to curb climate action over the decades. Tillerson then walked into the back of the room, heard what I was saying and yelled “that’s a damn lie!”

A week later, the press in the US showed that it was not a “damn lie”. It was exactly what they had been doing for a long time. These people think they can force their way through so that others will let them do whatever they want.

I think they should be taken to criminal courts. Anyone who knowingly allows their business to pollute the atmosphere with greenhouse gases should be taken to court. The damage they are causing will destroy millions of lives, trillions of dollars. Why should they get away with it? That’s what I mean when I say that [a sustentabilidade] it is increasingly political.

Mr. advocates a change in capitalism to achieve sustainable goals. But can we still trust the capitalist logic of accumulation and profit if we really want to achieve them? Not. I don’t think we can trust capitalism at all. I think we need different forms of revolution. Not like the Russian Revolution where you spend almost 200 years, but a combination of industrial technology revolution.

I just bought a book, I don’t remember what it’s called, but it’s about billionaires who want to go to Patagonia, to New Zealand, and they’re investing more and more in bunkers. This is what capitalism, particularly in the US and UK, is giving us at the moment.

My experience in Brazil is exactly the same. I’ve met people here who run big businesses and who are completely isolated from the world at large.

This model will not deliver even a fraction of the sustainable development goals. Capitalism is not going away and I think we are already seeing capitalism evolve into many different forms.

THE ESG schedule is growing in the world and companies are talking about sustainability more than ever. At the same time, we see emissions reach record levels, deforestation in Brazil growing… How optimistic are you really about the future? I was born an optimist and I am an optimist. I believe, because history suggests this, that when things are getting really dire, that’s the moment they start to change.

I don’t think the Ukrainian War will end with a nice peace treaty and Putin deciding to be nice to people. I think we are heading towards a period of expanding conflict, not shrinking. And part of that is superpower rivalry, like between China and the United States — or should I say the United States and China.

I’m optimistic on certain levels, but I also think as a species. Sometimes we can be incredibly short-sighted and incredibly stupid. And that’s where we are now.

However, I think in the next 15, 20 years we will see innovation in different forms. People are going to start changing the system, because it’s increasingly clear that the system that we developed, for example, in the 1940s and 1950s, just isn’t working for a lot of people.

The question is: either we go to the revolution or we do something different. I’m optimistic that we can do something different, but unless we do it quickly, this old-fashioned revolution will take its toll on our world.

There is a growing anti-ESG movement in the US. Do you see any risk of this spreading to other countries? Any social or business movement with sufficient power — and with any radical intent — will threaten the interests of investors and traditional industries.

I’ve been saying for years, and I wasn’t talking about ESG but about sustainability, that the time will come when people will realize what the implications of carbon and species loss commitments are for their investments and their industries — and they would start to fight back.

They’ve been struggling for a long time, like ExxonMobil. But this will become more public and more unpleasant.

Will we succeed in the end? I don’t know, all civilizations have collapsed, whether it’s because of pandemics, wars, or critical environmental changes. Why would we be different?

I hope I can continue to help maintain this schedule for longer. I think Brazil has the conditions and some kind of superpower, but not with this current political class and probably not with most of its business leaders either.

X-RAY

John Elkington, 73

A world authority on corporate responsibility, John Elkington is a sociologist, founder of Volans, creator of the sustainability tripod concept and author of 20 books, the most recent being “Green Swans: The Approaching Boom of Regenerative Capitalism”. A UK native, Elkington was a faculty member at the World Economic Forum from 2002 to 2008, served on more than 70 advisory boards and helped create the GRI (Global Reporting Initiative) and Dow Jones Sustainability Indexes.